Do you want to learn how to copy and paste your competitor’s website and email copy into Chat GPT and use AI prompts to create even more compelling communications and sales copy? You need to do this if you want to avoid sounding like everyone else in your industry.
Scroll to the bottom of this page, and you will find a link to the exact prompts shared by my guest and professional Copywriter, Joe Cunningham, aka Copywriter Joe.
Joe Cunningham has helped brands like Huel, Traffic & Conversion Summit, and Stacked Marketer connect with their audiences and get conversions.
If you want to connect with Joe, you can email him at joe@copywriterjoe.com or visit his website, www.copywriterjoe.com
Show Breakdown
0:00 Introduction
1:01 What is a copywriter?
1:41 The difference between copywriting and content writing.
4:58 Creating a good content strategy.
6:07 Smart copy on your website homepage is a selling moment.
10:20 Direct Response copy
13:31 The price of what you’re selling has a big influence on your copy as well.
18:30 The copywriting process/steps
19:44 Using Google Reviews, testimonials and success stories
24:47 Headlines and designing ad copy.
25:19 How is AI affecting what you do as a copywriter?
31:14 What are the best practices to follow if you’re doing your own copy?
34:34 Making your website stand out.
37:10 Layout: Your writing for skimmers and deep readers.
39:19 How to use your competitor’s copy to improve your own and stand out.
39:54 AI Hack – (information and prompts in show notes on https://www.podiatrylegends.com/
41:29 Choosing a copywriter – the vetting process.
43:34 How you become a copywriter – the qualifications
47:34 Joe’s contact details
The next 2-Day LIVE Podiatry Business Reboot: https://www.tysonfranklin.com/events/2DayPodiatryReboot2024
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If you do, feel free to email me at tf@tysonfranklin.com and visit my podiatry coaching page – https://www.tysonfranklin.com/Coaching
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JOE’S PROMPT
Copy/paste your competitors’ website copy, email copy, etc., into ChatGPT or Claude.
Ex: “You’re a [ target customer/client ] who’s considering [ product or service ]. What objections or hesitations might you have, based on the copy?”
Then, adjust your own copy so that it speaks to their hesitations or objections.
TRANSCRIPT (Unedited)
[00:00:00] Hi, I’m Tyson Franklin, and welcome to this week’s episode of the Podiatry Legends Podcast. With me today is a friend of mine called Joe Cunningham, aka Copywriter Joe. Joe, how are you doing today? I’m doing great, Tyson. How are you? I’m great. And just let people know, if you want to find Copywriter Joe, you go to copywriterjoe.com.
[00:00:19] That is so hard to remember that people should be able to find you very, very easily.
[00:00:25] So the reason I wanted to get you on here is because a few episodes ago, it was episode 319, I had Ivan Bristow on, a podiatrist in the UK.
[00:00:34] And we were talking about why all podiatrists should be blogging, and in that conversation with Ivan, we were talking about copywriting and how copywriting just is different to blogging.
[00:00:44] And you and I were just having this conversation before I pressed record prior to knowing you and knowing other copywriters.
[00:00:51] I just thought a copywriter was a writer. And I didn’t quite understand the difference. So could you explain what a copywriter is?
[00:00:59] [00:01:00] Yeah, definitely. So a copywriter is basically the easiest way to say it is they are a salesperson in print.
[00:01:08] Okay. The whole point of copy is to, to be. You’re selling and that sale doesn’t have to be a hard sale per se. It can be trying to encourage someone to download something, or it can be trying to encourage someone to book an exam with you. , it can even be trying to sell someone on, you know, podiatry legends podcast, or whatever it is, whatever content you’re producing to help promote your practice.
[00:01:32] Copywriting is always, basically selling. You’re trying to get someone to, you’re trying to motivate someone to see the value in and to take the next step. And that’s the big difference between copywriting and content writing. A lot of people confuse the two. Content writing, there can be some overlap, but generally content is about informing your audience, copywriting is about asking them to do something.
[00:01:56] So you’re trying to get them to actually take action on something. [00:02:00] And that’s the different, there is a customer psychology involved, there’s persuasion involved, there’s sales involved. It’s a different, it’s a very different kind of writing.
[00:02:09] Okay, that is a fantastic, explanation, especially when you said it’s sales in print, because it could be like if, if I was answering the telephone and there was a patient there, I could ask, do you want to make an appointment, which is a yes or no question, or I could say, would you like a morning or afternoon appointment? I’m still technically asking for an appointment, but it’s how it’s delivered.
[00:02:26] One is actually using a bit more salesmanship behind it. And the other one is really just asking a simple question.
[00:02:36] Yes. That’s a great example.
[00:02:38] So a lot of podiatrists , for example, would write a blog article or write a content article and they, and it’s a fantastic article, but you’re saying there’s no salesmanship in that article?
[00:02:48] Not necessarily like, and it probably depends on the kind of article you’re writing. And correct me if I’m wrong, Tyson, but generally speaking, if you’re writing an article, you’re probably trying to [00:03:00] educate your audience about something. Maybe you’re trying to educate them about like different ways to heal or not to heal an injury.
[00:03:07] the point of the content is to educate them, build some trust, build some credibility and rapport, but you’re not necessarily trying to sell them on, Hey, book an exam with my practice, book an exam with me, , call our office today. It’s very different.
[00:03:22] But let’s say you write this great article and now you want people to read it well now you’re in sales, because you’re trying to encourage people to actually read the article that you wrote. So when you send an email to your list where you post on social media and you’re trying to, and you’re saying, Hey, I’ve got this great content that I just wrote.
[00:03:42] Talks about. These different topics, how to heal, how not to heal, whatever, now you’re trying to, you’re asking people to read it. You’re like trying to sell them on the value of this thing and to get them to spend their time with it. And suddenly you’re in a different kind of writing. And , even if a lot of people don’t [00:04:00] know what copywriting is per se, I think a lot of people can tell, like the minute they have something to get out and they want people to, Read it or watch it or buy it, all of a sudden, they’re like, Oh, this is hard. This isn’t, it doesn’t feel as natural.
[00:04:17] Okay. So that makes sense. So a podiatrist may write an article, which is a fantastic article to educate their patients. But you’re saying, but to let your patients know the article is there, you may do an email or it could be , a Facebook post, or a print ad that’s in a magazine or a local, , Newspaper or something like that, it’s the words you use in there is to try and encourage them to go to your website to read that article.
[00:04:43] Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And that, that’s copywriting. Okay. So in the article itself, if it was a blog, should there be some copywriting skills in that as well to then say to them, Hey, this is what you need to do next?
[00:04:56] Probably. , I think a good content strategy is always going to [00:05:00] be, you always want someone to take that next step.
[00:05:03] So in that sense, yeah, there’s going to be some copy. You’re going to be using copy at some point in your content. You really should have, you should probably have some call to action at the end of your content. If someone reads your article, they get a lot from it. You want them to maybe get in touch with your office or maybe sign up for your newsletter, whatever it is.
[00:05:22] So you should probably always have something you’re asking them to do to take some small next step. So yeah, yeah, I would say that.
[00:05:29] Copy should be a part of that. Okay.
[00:05:32] And on your website. So for example, I went to your website before talking, of course. And so I just want to read something that’s on there and then just ask you a question about it.
[00:05:42] So I went to your website and at the top it has engage and convert, which makes sense. That’s what you want to engage with your patients or clients and convert them to want to use your services. So you’ve got run quality campaigns sooner, hit marketing goals and impress executives with timely, [00:06:00] tone conscious copy that moves customers or clients to take action now instead of never.
[00:06:06] So on your website itself, and any podiatrist, any podiatrist doesn’t have a website, they’re probably not listening to this podcast anyway. So all podiatrists that have a website should also be really looking at that first page when people click onto their website. There should be some really smart copy in that.
[00:06:26] I think there should be. I mean, Why is someone visiting your homepage? If someone is visiting your home page, , regardless of where they came from. There’s a very good chance they come to your website because they’re interested in you and in your practice and in your services.
[00:06:43] That’s a selling moment
[00:06:45] Yeah,
[00:06:45] but they want to know how can you help me? How can you make my life better? I’ve had this heel pain for months how are you gonna help me with this? How do I know you’re the right person for me? How do I know that you’re trustworthy? Have you helped [00:07:00] other people like me when someone is visiting your page those are the questions you have and so you’re Your homepage, like from the very top, very bottom, you really, I think you want to structure it and write it so that you are answering those questions and you are showing that your services specifically, have what they need.
[00:07:19] So yeah, absolutely. You’re that’s what, with my own homepage copy, I try to do that too. Like I try to show people who are visiting me right away. Like, this is what I do. This is how I can help you.
[00:07:30] Yeah, because if I’d been to your website and it was crap, I would have been very disappointed.
[00:07:37] If I’d gone to your website and all of a sudden I went, Oh my God, you need a copywriter, then I would have been very disappointed with that. So I was expecting, I was actually expecting when I got on there, it was going to say something, especially the engaging convert you put at the top. I just went. Well, that’s why you would get a copywriter.
[00:07:53] I want someone to help me engage and convert better. And I was also, like you said, when people come to your website, I was on Charlie [00:08:00] Mann’s podcast the other day. Yeah. What they don’t teach you in law school.
[00:08:03] Oh, nice.
[00:08:04] And the episode had a guy, Jan Ross on there.
[00:08:08] And they were giving an example and they said, when someone walks into a car yard, They’re not there just to waste two hours. When someone actually walks into a car yet, more than likely they’re there because they’re interested in buying a car. And then that sets something off in my head.
[00:08:25] And I started drawing all these diagrams, which I’m going to use at an upcoming reboot event. And, but it makes me realise what you just said, when someone comes to your website, regardless of how they got there, they’re there for a reason. So then it’s up to you to answer those questions. Right.
[00:08:44] And I also think that generally speaking, you should assume that with your website, that someone is there for a reason, sometimes I’ve definitely talked to some clients and even work for some companies before where they, they had this idea of, well, we want the website to talk to everybody and everyone to catch [00:09:00] everybody.
[00:09:00] But I think with your website, it’s really important that you’re, you are talking to a specific person and you’re always starting with the baseline of we can help them in some way and here’s how we can help.
[00:09:10] You can let them decide how they want to click around or whatever, but, I think with certain marketing assets or marketing tools like your website, you should absolutely be trying to, ,
[00:09:22] That should be the point of your website.
[00:09:26] So if I go through that thing again, where you’ve got to run quality campaigns sooner, but I like that the last part that you’ve written here, where you said, , move customers or clients or in our case patients to take action now instead of never. So with the copy of writing, it is all about taking action.
[00:09:45] Yes, correct.
[00:09:46] Correct. The technical boring term for it is direct response. It’s this idea that, the
[00:09:51] kind
[00:09:51] of copywriting that I do, it’s so boring, I don’t have to say it, because I don’t want to bore people. Their eyes are going to be blown away. I almost
[00:09:59] fell asleep as soon as [00:10:00] you said that, direct response, I started to nod off.
[00:10:04] Hope you got coffee with you.
[00:10:05] I had one just before I got on because I was concerned you were going to say direct response. So I was getting ready, preparation for it. I probably should have
[00:10:13] warned you and your listeners, there might be some technical terms, some very technical boring terms. Yeah, that’s okay.
[00:10:20] But, yeah. So like the copy that I do primarily for clients is called like direct response. And it’s, that’s the point. The point is to get someone to respond and preferably you want to get them to respond now, not later, not tomorrow. When people put things off, they frequently tend to not do them.
[00:10:41] Or, , like maybe they have a good reason for not doing it yet. And that’s okay too. The idea is , you’re always like. Opening that door, trying to get them to take that next step.
[00:10:51] And it’s sort of, it’s part of the whole nurturing process. So what you’re doing with your patients, clients, or customers, it’s really, it’s what you’re doing with [00:11:00] these people over a period of time, because like our mutual friend, Dave Frees, and this is how Joe and I know each other is through Dave Frees and through business black ops, best event ever. And amazing event, isn’t it?
[00:11:14] Even though my two day podiatry business reboot is frigging awesome.
[00:11:18] But Business Black Ops is, is completely different. Only special people go. And, but yeah, Dave always talks about that whole nurturing process. And when people see your marketing, they say 50 percent of people are never freaking going to buy. They’re just never going to buy. 5 percent will just take immediate action because they’re just willing to try anything.
[00:11:39] They’re so desperate. But that 45 percent of the ones you’ve got to pamper along the way, you’ve got to nurture them. And it could be nurturing for an hour, could be a week, could be a month, or it could be 12 months. You just gotta, it’ll take time for them to convert. So you’ve gotta engage with them to make ’em convert.
[00:11:56] Right, right.
[00:11:58] Yeah. I don’t know if the number has [00:12:00] changed, but last I heard it was something like, you need to be able to, you need to connect with someone at least seven times before they’re ready to. Buy from you. Yeah. And so it’s kind of, I don’t know. Have you, have you heard that before?
[00:12:12] Yeah, I’ve heard seven. I’ve
[00:12:14] heard 11. I’ve heard it multiple times and I’ve mentioned it on this podcast and we’ve got another podcast to do with a Big Jim Mac called podiatry marketing, and we talk about that a lot, and I admit it myself, sometimes I’ll see something, I’ll go, Oh, that looks really interesting but if I only ever see it the once and I never see it again, I will totally forget about it.
[00:12:37] If I see it multiple times, I start to get a little bit more trust in the company or the person or the service, then I’ll start to investigate. And I’m one of those people that I really make really quick decisions.
[00:12:49] I need to gather the information. And at the moment I’m looking at this thing, I think it’s called an Osmo Pocket 3. [00:13:00] It’s made by DJI. It’s a handheld like video camera that you can use for vlogging and doing videos and recording. Go and check it out. Osmo Pocket 3. Pocket three by DJI.
[00:13:15] It’s
[00:13:15] fantastic. Absolutely
[00:13:16] fantastic. But I’ve been looking at it now for about six weeks, looking at different articles, reading things, watching videos on YouTube, really sussing out. So the bigger the ticket item, the more time I take to make a decision. The cheaper something is, I’ll just sometimes go, what’s there to lose?
[00:13:36] You know, 25 bucks. I’ll just do it. So I think price has a lot to do with what you put in your copy as well.
[00:13:42] Yeah, man, absolutely. Absolutely. A lot of people ask, like, how long should my copy be? And, there is no one or one, like, best answer to that. But a rule of thumb is something under, $50 copy should probably be short.
[00:13:59] But if it’s more [00:14:00] than that, your copy should probably be long. As long as you need to make the case to show that it’s worth their time and their investment.
[00:14:08] That makes perfect sense. If a podiatrist was selling a cream, and it’s a 25 tube of cream, they don’t need to spend a lot of time on the copy on that cream.
[00:14:16] The person either wants it or they don’t.
[00:14:20] Yeah.
[00:14:20] If they’re trying to get them to use another service, which is going to cost hundreds or a thousand dollars, they need to put a bit more time and effort into guiding them through a process.
[00:14:31] Yeah, right, and I, and I wonder too, if there’s the there’s not just the price part of it, but also the time.
[00:14:39] If something is going to take more time on your part, or if it’s a, almost like a coaching relationship where you’re going to be spending a lot of time with someone, then you probably need more time to decide, do I want to spend a lot of time with this person? So it’s like the money and I think it’s also the time.
[00:14:58] Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I’d be curious to hear your [00:15:00] thoughts on that, if that, if that sounds.
[00:15:02] Well, I think that’s the hardest part with coaching is, you know, you’re going to be partying with money.
[00:15:08] That’s one thing you want to know. You’re going to get the results, which is another thing, but I think you want to know that you’re going to like the person that you’re going to work with. Yeah. Works in reverse to me, even with clients I’ve had. Some clients we started to be in a very short term relationship and it’s finished because I just don’t think we jelled.
[00:15:25] We just didn’t click. The copy might’ve been good enough , to make them say yes. But then once we spoke, it’s usually a fairly mutual feeling you just don’t click. But I know when I’ve engaged the services of other people that I want to know that I’m going to feel comfortable with this person because most of the time, I want long term relationships, and so therefore, there’s got to be a bit of depth to who the person is. So, I agree. I think in the copy, there should be more than less.
[00:15:57] Yeah, and I think especially when you’re [00:16:00] in the service business, like we both are.
[00:16:02] Yeah. And a lot of your listeners are. There’s a lot of service involved and yeah, I think that’s very important because that’s, it’s the same thing with me. If I’m going to be using someone’s services or like learning from someone, I mean, Dave Frees is so likable.
[00:16:19] He’s such a likable guy. Like you want to spend time with him. So yeah, I think that’s, I think that’s absolutely true. Because he does,
[00:16:26] because he, he messes with our brain
[00:16:27] though. That’s true. Yeah, he does. Yeah. Yeah. He he has a Jedi mind
[00:16:32] tricks that
[00:16:33] he does.
[00:16:33] He does. He, I reckon he can move things to be really thought about it.
[00:16:37] You’re probably good. But, but I think it is one of the things that’s why I’m always surprised sometimes when someone’s decided it could be say copywriting, it might be say podiatry business coaching, and they’ll be looking at an individual like yourself or myself, and they’re looking at a bigger company.
[00:16:54] And I sometimes just shake my head going, why would you sometimes choose a bigger company? Where they might have all this stuff [00:17:00] written down and then they hand you off to an employee.
[00:17:03] Yeah, and,
[00:17:04] and I go, why would you do that? You go to this coaching company that will, they’ll engage with you, and then they hand you off to an employee who just works for them.
[00:17:14] They, they’re getting paid regardless. Maybe doesn’t of what happens
[00:17:17] and maybe. Yeah, and maybe they haven’t even been there that long either.
[00:17:21] They may not, they’re not a, podiatry, they’ve never done podiatry. They may have had one podiatry business case, but don’t really know much about the profession and they’re learning off your back.
[00:17:31] And I sit there shaking my head, and that’s why I always recommend if you’re a podiatrist, Ideally, spend some time with a podiatry business coach who’s actually done it. And there’s a few of us out there. So I think I mentioned I was the best one before, didn’t I? Yes, you did. Yeah, you did.
[00:17:46] Yeah. You did. Okay. Just make sure, just to clarify that. How do you work with people? Well, we should probably
[00:17:52] say that at least like four more times. We should probably say that at least four more times over the course of the podcast.
[00:17:57] Oh yeah. And I can do the outro at the end too, just [00:18:00] to remind everyone that I am one of the best podiatry business coaches going around.
[00:18:03] So that’s our third time we’ve mentioned it. The good part about this podcast is everybody knows that. I joke around a bit, but those people that actually work with me, some of our longterm coaching clients, they’d be listening to this and going, I know for a fact what it’s like to work with Tyson.
[00:18:18] It’s fun. And we also make money. Back on to Joe. So if you’re working with a client, what, what’s the steps you go through? How do you work with people?
[00:18:31] So usually what I do is we there’s research plays a big role. So when I first start working with someone, it’s, if it’s a first time client. Then once we agree to work together, we have that initial call, the energy is good, the connection seems good. And and it seems like , their particular marketing problem or challenge is something I can help with. Then we’ll have an hour long conversation. And we’ll just like, I’ll ask, I have a set of questions that I asked them primarily about things [00:19:00] like their target customer, the their market, their product or service.
[00:19:04] Why did they price it the way they did? Stuff like that. So we go pretty deep into , their business model and who they’re serving and who’s buying and why. And then I’ll also do some independent research as well. So, cause I want to get the client side, what they say about themselves, but I also want to get a sense of what are other people saying about them?
[00:19:23] Cause a really important, a super important part of good marketing is, as I’m sure you know, Tyson, it’s one thing to sell yourself, but it’s another thing to have someone else who is reputable sell you for you. So like finding people, seeing what other people are saying about my client, what their reviews are, their testimonials.
[00:19:44] Then like drawing pretty heavily from that to connect their motivations, their needs, their all, also their own language, their own words. How they describe their problems or their challenges or what they’re trying to do. And then use that to write copy for my [00:20:00] client that their, their customers see themselves in.
[00:20:03] They’re like, oh my gosh, this person gets me. So there’s the there’s usually the like kickoff call. We go deep and then I do my own research and study them, their business from the outside and their customers as well. Sometimes even doing customer interviews and then actually doing the work and sending it over to them.
[00:20:21] So I don’t know if that answers your question, but that’s kind of like
[00:20:23] the general. It does and that was a good point that you said too, that you look at reviews that are written by customers, clients or patients, and the words that they’re using, had 20 people give them a five star review on Google.
[00:20:37] And they, and you read those reviews, you’re then taking that and go, there’s going to be other patients out there who, if I can write something using the words that those other 20 people have written, then you’re going to get more of those people. That’s really smart. Yeah, that’s really smart.
[00:20:51] Exactly.
[00:20:54] Oh, you’re a sneaky man, Joe.
[00:20:57] I’m sneaky. So do [00:21:00] all copywriters work the same way or is this your unique way of actually doing it?
[00:21:05] I wish I could say it’s unique to me, but it’s not. There are, there are a lot of copywriters who do. I don’t know if all copywriters work the same way. Actually, I think one of the things I, maybe we’ll get to this later on, but one of the things that you.
[00:21:19] If you’re looking to work with typewriters, one of the things you can look out for is do they have a process? Do they do things like this?
[00:21:26] Yeah.
[00:21:27] Because you don’t want, you don’t want someone who’s just, who just likes writing pretty words or making sentences. You want someone who is actually, they’re trying to help you sell.
[00:21:38] They’re trying to help you get results from whatever it is you’re doing. Maybe it’s those email, that email campaign you’re sending out because you’re trying to get people to sign up. Sign up for a webinar or something. So yeah, think the good copywriters will do something very similar to what I do.
[00:21:52] There’ll probably be some variations in how they go about it.
[00:21:55] But I suppose that’s the difference too, because like you said, [00:22:00] someone could go to a copywriter and they go, I want these articles written for me. I want these blog articles written. So they’re like more, more salesy. For example, third person just gets them, rewrites them, puts them, gives them back.
[00:22:12] And there you go, whereas you’re saying, no, let’s dig deeper into what it was that your customers are saying about you. What is it that you need? What are your marketing goals? And then actually putting it, it’s almost putting a strategic plan together.
[00:22:26] The actual article itself might just be the tactic that you’re using here in an email and over here on your website, but you’re looking at the strategic level first.
[00:22:35] Yeah, exactly. Very much so. And definitely, I, it’s very important to me that whatever copy we do supports their strategic objective because sometimes people have asked me to do things.
[00:22:47] And I remember like early on, this was like definitely learning experience for me, but like early on, I just started my copywriting business. I was maybe four or five months in.
[00:22:55] Yeah.
[00:22:56] And I had a client who really, they were working with an agency to [00:23:00] run ads that links people to a landing page for something, for an e book that they were promoting.
[00:23:05] And she told me, we’re not getting any people to download this e book. I don’t know why. We’re getting a lot of people from the ads, but no one’s downloading it. And I said, well, let’s, maybe what we should do is redo your landing page, because it sounds like For whatever reason, the landing page isn’t working.
[00:23:21] The ads are working, the landing page is not. But she said, no, no, let’s write, let’s just write emails. We want to write an email sequence for the people who download. In retrospect, maybe I should have said, well, maybe we shouldn’t do this at all, but cause this isn’t going to help you.
[00:23:36] So she was focusing just on the tactic of doing the emails and not what the overall strategy was. Right.
[00:23:42] She was focusing on the tactic and, but there is definitely a larger strategy piece that was missing there. And just and an obvious problem too, that she was overlooking. So when I do copy, I want to make sure that the, We’re actually solving their marketing problem and then that the strategy matches.[00:24:00]
[00:24:00] Yeah, that makes sense because I, when I’m talking to podiatry groups, whether I’m talking about marketing or anything else, , they’ll come in and say, Oh, I saw a podiatrist doing this, might be on Instagram. I was thinking of doing the same thing. Oh, yeah,
[00:24:14] yeah.
[00:24:14] Where’s that fit into what your overall strategy is and what is it you’re trying to achieve?
[00:24:19] So that they always see another podiatrist do something, go off, it’s working for them. It’ll work for me. And it’s not always the case. So, is copywriting also involved in just creating a headline or a display ad or is it, that’s not so much what you would
[00:24:37] How do you mean? Do you mean like actually designing the ad?
[00:24:41] Not so much designing the ad, but the words that would go on the ad to actually get the best impact.
[00:24:47] Oh, definitely. Absolutely. Yeah. Headline, you know, yeah. Copywriting would absolutely be responsible for writing that whole ad.
[00:24:56] So I would write the whole ad, probably a bunch of ads too. Okay. [00:25:00] And. Probably ads that we’re testing a few different angles or at least we’re giving the client a bunch of things that , they can try out. Let’s see what works,
[00:25:08] So you don’t give just one thing.
[00:25:09] You don’t say, Hey, here’s the ad now go and run with it. You’ll say, here’s a few ads. Let’s test them in different places. See which one gets the best response. And then you’ll fine tune that one to make it even better.
[00:25:21] Yes.
[00:25:23] Yeah, exactly.
[00:25:24] And it probably depends on what the ads, where the ads are being run, , platforms like Meta are.
[00:25:30] If you’re using Meta ads now, I believe Meta is automating certain aspects of your ads for you, so they might create some variations on your behalf, but if you’d rather not have Meta be doing that, and you want a little more control over what’s being said, and you want to do things manually then, yeah, , you would need a copywriter to help you produce those different variations, and sometimes even doing a mix of both, but yeah, , I would actually be absolutely right.
[00:25:58] A variety of ads and [00:26:00] give people different, a bunch of different angles that they can test and try out.
[00:26:04] Okay. So how is AI affecting what you do?
[00:26:09] Because would, some people think I don’t need a copywriter. I can just go to Chat GTP4 and say, Hey, pretend you’re a copywriter and write this for me.
[00:26:17] And a lot of people do that. , I think it can work. I think it probably depends on what you are selling.
[00:26:24] If you’re selling something that’s a little more like commodity, little more lower price.
[00:26:28] Yeah.
[00:26:28] Then that’s probably going to do the job. You may not need to hire someone like me to write a bunch of ads for you. But I think it also depends on your brand. If your brand is known, like actually dove, I don’t know if you heard about this, but dove soap,
[00:26:41] they
[00:26:45] recently swore off all AI generated copy because like they, they were, they wanted people to know like our entire brand is about being real. We can’t use AI [00:27:00] content because that would go conflict with our brand. So I think, there are a lot of brands who are like that. There are more brands who are doing that. Medium is a, is like a blogging platform. They also recently took a similar stance. So I think there was a time when I was a little more nervous about AI in that sense, like, Oh no, is this going to replace me?
[00:27:19] But I’m not nervous anymore because I’ve seen what AI can do and it’s okay. But it’s also. Just not as compelling or as specific as what you need to have really good marketing copy. It’s been actually useful for me. I use it sometimes if I am, if I’m analyzing a bunch of data, like for example, if I have a bunch of customer reviews to go through, I’ll use AI to help me like quickly pull out some patterns, but even so I’m still going to read those myself.
[00:27:50] And , I’m going to confirm that if the, whatever AI pulls out for me is actually based on what I gave it, , stuff like that. Cause sometimes it doesn’t give you.
[00:27:58] I did I did an interview with [00:28:00] a podiatrist in India and we were talking about all this different stuff and he was giving a lot of statistics on the diabetic foot,
[00:28:06] so then I took a whole conversation, put it in a chat GTP4 and said, can you do a 400 word dot point of the highlights from this actual conversation? Cause I don’t normally do this. So I put it in there, and all of a sudden it gave me the 400 words, looked fantastic, read fantastic, except nearly every statistic that it pulled out was wrong.
[00:28:29] It took a little bit of what he said here, and a little bit of what he said over here, and put the two together, , it got muddled up By trying to pull stuff out and make it more concise, it was incorrect. And I did it deliberately because I knew we mentioned a lot of stats in that conversation.
[00:28:48] I thought, well, this would be a good test to see, does it understand the difference or is it just going to throw things together? It reminded me of that was that legal case? Was it in America where the guy used, [00:29:00] used Chat GTP to write his legal brief or something. And it just pulled That’s right.
[00:29:04] Just pulled random stats. It just made it Made shit up. It just made stuff up. Made up fake cases.
[00:29:10] Yeah. And the guy presented it. Yes. It was making up fake cases.
[00:29:14] Yeah.
[00:29:14] And none of those cases ended up being real.
[00:29:16] No. They were all fake. Yeah. And it wasn’t till found out till later. It all of a sudden. Then he admitted that he used AI to actually do his brief.
[00:29:25] I thought that was funny. And I have read some podiatry articles on some websites and I know just by reading it, you go, that’s AI. Cause , you pick up little errors.
[00:29:36] Yeah. You can pick up a little errors and. There, there’s a tone that AI uses too, that’s pretty consistent, like regardless of whether you’re like using chat GPT or something else, like there is a particular kind of tone that at least I can pick up.
[00:29:52] There’s debate about how well people can pick up, whether something is AI generated, it sounds like maybe older audiences have a harder time than [00:30:00] younger audiences do. But,
[00:30:02] but I can usually tell. Yeah, if I know the person pretty well, and I’m reading some of their information, I know if they’ve actually put it all together.
[00:30:11] Because I can’t hear their voice and what’s in what they’ve, what has been written.
[00:30:16] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:30:17] Cause it’s funny. It’s just, it’s even though you’re right and people can’t hear your voice while you’re reading it, but , everyone writes sort of in their own personality
[00:30:26] and it’s actually hard to hide your personality in your writing. Yeah. Like even when I wrote the world’s greatest podiatry business book, it’s no secret there’s money in podiatry. When I wrote that book and I gave my brother a copy, he thought maybe I said a few things and a ghost writer I wrote it.
[00:30:42] He said, ’cause she failed English at school. So how did you write a book? ? When he, when he read the book though, he said, oh my God. He said I could, I, he said, I could tell within the first chapter, I knew you wrote this book. He said, because I could, as I’m reading it, I could hear your voice. And it was, [00:31:00] you wrote exactly how you speak.
[00:31:04] And so he said , no one could have copied that. So I think it’s the same with all your writing.
[00:31:09] Okay, I’m going to ask another question. What’s the best practices if you’re doing your own copy? What are the best practices to follow?
[00:31:17] Yeah, that’s a great question.
[00:31:18] Well, if you are doing a copy on your own, I would get lots and lots of Like social proof. In other words, lots and lots of testimonials and reviews and stories from your clients or
[00:31:31] patients. Get as many of those as you can. So using patient stories. So that’s a, if you’ve had a patient, you’ve had a really great outcome.
[00:31:37] In Australia we can’t use testimonials. Oh, that’s good. Everyone else you can, but reviews are being allowed through , but I like the idea of patient stories. Oh, okay. Can you use patient stories? As long as you don’t use the patient’s name. Gotcha.
[00:31:54] You can go through the story of what they came in with, what you did for them how you reviewed it, what the results were, [00:32:00] and now how they’ve, won an Olympic gold medal.
[00:32:02] You can do all that. As long as they won the Olympic gold medal. Yeah. You can’t lie.
[00:32:07] Right. Don’t lie. Don’t lie about that.
[00:32:08] No.
[00:32:08] Talk to your team. I lie about that for you. But
[00:32:10] I know one podiatrist, I remember reading something he wrote and he said his patients liked him. And I thought, well, that’s obviously a lie.
[00:32:25] Don’t make claims that your patients are gonna be like, that’s not true. Yeah, that’s not true.
[00:32:28] There’s no way. There’s no way anyone ever said they liked you. That’s just, you might be good at what you do. Right. And even then that’s debatable. So back on the, so patient stories, testimonials, reviews.
[00:32:38] So it’s using that in the copy.
[00:32:40] Yes. Using that in the copy and being strategic with how you use it too. So have that on your homepage, for example. Use it in your emails when you are, or on your landing pages. If you are promoting something and you’re trying to get people to, sign up for something, Listen to your podcast or, take a book, an exam, wherever it is, wherever you [00:33:00] are trying to get someone to do something, have some testimonials or some stories there and it sounds, , granted, maybe in your industry, like you can’t use names, but you should still have , you want to have your claims.
[00:33:12] Like, here’s what we’re going to do for you. Or here’s what you’re going to get from this, but then you want to back it up to with some kind of proof. So I think it’s the more that you have, the better, especially because one of the first things people are going to look for when they are searching for you on Google or online, they’re right away going to want to know what are other people saying about this person?
[00:33:33] What have other people experienced with this person? The more of those stories you can collect and show, the better. And even better, if you have, if you are making a particular claim, like this is our expertise, or this is our specialisation, for example, and then right there, having some stories that say, he helped me walk again, he helped me run again, whatever it is the more testimonials and stories you can gather, the [00:34:00] better, and then use them.
[00:34:01] That makes so much sense though, because I even think my own webpage. And I’ve had so many positive reviews about my book, but I don’t actually have them so much scattered where the book section actually is. And when it comes to business coaching, I’ve heard people write a lot of positive things about business coaching and I have a few of them there, but I could probably use them better.
[00:34:25] But I know podiatrists that exactly the same thing where they’ve got these positive reviews, they should be using them.
[00:34:30] Yeah, totally. And especially, I mean, correct me if I’m wrong, Tyson, but I’m sure a lot of practice websites look the same, right?
[00:34:40] They all have kind of like the
[00:34:41] same sort of,
[00:34:42] yeah.
[00:34:43] So right away, if you want a very easy way to stand out to someone who is looking at your site and is comparing you to someone else, have some stories on there.
[00:34:52] Not just some, have a bunch of stories like make, basically make it overwhelming the amount of proof that you have. ’cause right away [00:35:00] you’ll be instantly more credible and you’ll stand out. It’s a very simple way to. Cut through some of the noise
[00:35:05] and cut through some of the content. But what do you think, because sometimes you’ll see it’ll have a testimonial, for example, and it’ll have John S. from Texas. And you go, , is John S. real? Because it’s John S. from Texas. Whereas to me, if it’s a testimonial review, you should have the full, the proper name there. So if I want to go and suss this person out, I could if I wanted to, or I could see other reviews maybe they’ve done. I understand the patient’s story, like I said, we can’t, you can’t use Patients names.
[00:35:34] So, if you’re using a reviewer of testimonial, use the full name? Or is it just using their initials as well? JP from New South Wales?
[00:35:43] Yeah, I think
[00:35:44] it’s not ideal to use just the first name and the last initial, or just initials. Also, you have to follow the laws of your Yeah, of your
[00:35:53] country, yeah.
[00:35:54] But, I think a simple way to just demonstrate the credibility of that particular testimonial, that [00:36:00] particular story, is make sure you’re showing stories that are really specific. The more specific the story, the more believable it’s going to be.
[00:36:07] It’s a pretty vague testimonial. But do you
[00:36:10] mean like, say somebody landed on a page and it was about an Achilles problem. If you had a testimony from someone who had actually came to see, or you told a story about a patient who came to see you with an Achilles problem who could no longer run, but all of a sudden you went through this process, fixed them up, and now they’re running in a local marathon and came fourth.
[00:36:32] That’s a credible story that goes with that particular problem of what the person was searching for.
[00:36:37] Yes. Yeah, that’s an excellent use case.
[00:36:40] Yeah, that’s good. I think a lot of podiatrists will get a lot from this. I hope so. Just that, just that alone, because every podiatrist that’s good at what they do would have so many success stories.
[00:36:53] Yes. Yeah.
[00:36:55] Now, is there a way that they should write the success story? Is there a certain, is there a length of [00:37:00] words. I’ve heard you should have, headings throughout the chapters that you’re writing, have the chapters smaller, a lot of white space, is all that important as well, or it’s the more, it’s just the story?
[00:37:10] Well, , the layout of the text, the, like the design of the text is always going to be very important. The more white space, proper headers and subheads, very important. You want to be able to write for people who are skimmers as well as people who are deep readers. It’s like give the skimmers like the meat are the most important points of the story in the head in the headlines in the subheads.
[00:37:33] But, as far as writing the story itself, I think the most important part is the problem and the transformation and also showing, I think in particular focusing on the person that you helped. So in other words, You probably don’t want to say, Oh, so, so and so came to our, clinic because they had this Achilles heel problem and here’s what we did for them.
[00:37:57] Instead, you probably want to say something like, so and [00:38:00] so came to our practice because they had this Achilles problem. They couldn’t play football with their son anymore. They couldn’t run in that marathon, even though that was on their bucket list.
[00:38:07] Yeah.
[00:38:07] They wanted to get back to their life again, to the routine again. It was affecting even when they were at work or whatever it is really focusing on the the person that you helped so that other people can see themselves in that and be inspired by what you did, as opposed to feeling like you’re hyping yourself up. Look what we did for this person, blah, blah, blah.
[00:38:28] It’s more like. This person had this desire, , this dream, this, , they wanted to do this thing and here’s how we helped them do that thing and now they’re back at it. Completely different story, even though it’s a very like kind of a subtle like shift in how you tell it, but it’s a significant shift.
[00:38:44] Well, I can put myself in the shoes of that person. that if you’ve had that problem, you go, yeah, that’s exactly what it’s stopping me doing. And yes, that’s exactly what I want to do in the future as well. Oh, good. You helped them. I don’t care how you helped them. I just want to know that you helped them.
[00:38:58] And now they came [00:39:00] forth in the, in the Cairns Marathon. I’m like, yeah, that’s what I want to do, except I want to get on the podium. So maybe I need to see a different podiatrist. My God, who helped the winner? Geez, one, one last thing before we wrap up. One of the things when I asked you for some talking points as well, you put, how do you use competitors copy to improve your own and stand out?
[00:39:24] Yeah. So this kind of gets back to what we were talking about a little bit earlier, just when we were saying how a lot of your competitors websites probably look the same and their copy is probably saying more or less the same stuff.
[00:39:35] Here are our credentials. Here’s our experience. , got our doctorate, , got our Our licenses from these places, blah, blah, blah.
[00:39:41] One of the things you can do, actually, this is an, if you want, that here’s an AI hack that I think. As long as you review it with your own eyes and make sure it’s correct, that’s good. But this is something you can use AI to help you with. Take a bunch of just like Google, the podiatry practices nearest [00:40:00] you get a bunch of them, look at their websites, copy, paste. What they are saying on their homepages and then give it to AI, give it to Claude or to chat GPT and Tyson, if you want, I can even share the specific prompts with you later.
[00:40:15] So you can like share with your audience. Yeah, yeah.
[00:40:17] But that way they’ll have to go to the website podiatrylegends.com, go to this particular episode and then read the show notes, you lazy buggers. And I’ll have the extra information in there.
[00:40:30] There you go.
[00:40:31] Yeah. And if they’ve stopped listening to this episode before they even got to this point, then shame on them.
[00:40:37] They’ll never know about it.
[00:40:38] And by the way, Tyson, when you promote this episode, you can stay in the show description. Listen to this show to learn how you can send out using , your competitor’s copy. .
[00:40:50] Ooh. I like that. And that will
[00:40:51] get them to listen.
[00:40:52] Cause I’ll be like, Ooh, that’s really interesting. And now they have to listen to the podcast to find out.
[00:40:57] People will listen to this episode and go, Oh yeah, this is [00:41:00] absolutely fantastic. They might even write down a couple of notes.
[00:41:02] I think the hardest part for a lot of people, you’re busy and it’s just taking that first initial step. Of actually making contact with a copywriter or even if they just started doing it better themselves or taking what the competitors are doing and using chat GPT with the prompts that you will give me later.
[00:41:23] So, I think that’s the hardest part. It’s just doing that next step. So the last question I wanted to ask before we wrap up was if somebody is considering getting a copywriter is there a vetting process? Is this something that they should look at to go through before they choose someone?
[00:41:40] Just a couple of quick things that , I would suggest if you are looking to work at a copywriter, their website should have a portfolio. They should have examples of the work that they’ve done. So look at their portfolio, read what they’ve written for other people. Do they have results?
[00:41:55] Did the work that they produced get results for their clients? Did it increase sales? Did it [00:42:00] increase bookings? Whatever that might be. Do you like their style? Are you convinced by what they wrote? Does it, , compel you? I would look at their portfolio and kind of get a sense of, , do you feel things when you read it?
[00:42:11] And do they have results attached to their work? And and also do they have a process? Whether that’s on their website or whether you are able to have a conversation with them, make sure they have a process. Make sure that you’re not talking to someone who is just , I just love putting words together.
[00:42:26] If you want to avoid those types. And last thing, are they interested in helping you achieve your goals? Are they asking you good questions about what you’re trying to accomplish? Because a good copywriter is going to make sure that the writing that they produce is going to help you. Solve that problem as opposed to just signing a contract or even just writing something So those would be my quick tips.
[00:42:47] I do have another question for you though And this is not going to be a silly question I hope, hopefully it’s not if this is a silly question I’ll just cut this out of the podcast But your education process to [00:43:00] go through to become a copywriter Like, we have some patients, years and years ago, you say, did you have to go to university to be a podiatrist?
[00:43:08] And I went, no, no, I just woke up one morning and thought, you know what? I’m going to go and buy some needles and start jabbing them in people and taking out ingrown toenails. Because I can. I said, of course I went to university, you idiot. I assume you went to uni, did you do some writing, journalism or something along those lines first?
[00:43:28] I did. I, so I went to I went to university, I studied English. It was and technically it was like writing. My focus was on writing. While I was at university, and I was also a campus reporter, so I was writing for our local paper during that time. And my first job after graduation was writing copy and content for a little web development firm and I’ve been in marketing writing copy and content ever since I’ve also taken numerous [00:44:00] copywriting courses. There absolutely are copywriting courses that anyone can take. Do you want to be a better writer? That’s what I
[00:44:06] was wondering about you obviously. Yeah, cuz I know you I know you’re a You are really switched on.
[00:44:11] So assume you went through uni, did English or writing or something like that. Yeah. Then you’ve brushed up on the copywriting skills as you’ve got along. Yes. But some people could be a podiatrist, for example, and they just go do a copywriting course and they can call themselves Absolutely. A copywriter.
[00:44:26] Yeah. With copy it. It’s a little, it’s probably not nearly as intensive or as, , complicated or, , you don’t need, you’re not a doctor, right? The amount of study you need to be decent or proficient at copywriting is not nearly the level of, , the level of what you do Tyson, for example.
[00:44:43] So you’re not going to kill someone writing words? You might hurt their feelings, but you won’t hurt them. You
[00:44:47] might hurt their feelings.
[00:44:48] You might hurt their sales.
[00:44:50] Yeah. You might hurt some, you might hurt some egos. There’s always that risk, you know.
[00:44:54] Yeah.
[00:44:54] But but that’s, I think that’s kind of the beauty of copywriting is that in a sense, Anyone can do it.
[00:44:59] Anyone [00:45:00] can learn it and anyone can do it. But also, only the best are going to actually have results. Either it works or it doesn’t. Either
[00:45:07] they
[00:45:08] solved the problem or they didn’t.
[00:45:09] Yeah, that’s good. It’s like podcasting. Anyone can do it. That’s the problem with it. Is anyone can do it. Yeah. And, but it’s even podiatry businesses, the best part about, setting up a podiatry business in Australia is you don’t need a lot of money to set up a podiatry business.
[00:45:28] One of the worst things about podiatry in Australia is you don’t need a lot of money to set up a podiatry business. Ah. And it sounds the same as copywriting. Which is why there’s a vast difference between someone who’s really good at it.
[00:45:42] I remember going to a breakfast once. It was a business breakfast, and this young dude about 20 turns up on a skateboard as you do. It’s not how I normally turn up to a business breakfast. I’m a skateboard , but he rocks up on a skateboard and I’m chatting away to him.
[00:45:56] He said so John, what do you do? [00:46:00] He goes, oh, he says, I do social media marketing. Of course you do. You’ve got a skateboard, baggy t shirt. Yep. Of course you do social media marketing. And I said, how long have you been doing that for? He goes, Oh, well, don’t tell anyone. I’ve only just started. I really have no idea what I’m doing, but I’m learning.
[00:46:18] I’m learning as I go. And that is also the problem with the whole social media marketing. It’s the problem with business coaching. Anyone can do business coaching. Anyone can have a practice for a few years and go, I’m now going to coach people.
[00:46:32] Yeah.
[00:46:34] And that’s what’s probably good about being a podiatrist. , you’ve had to go through a certain amount of training before you’re allowed to stick a needle in someone. There is this level of skill,
[00:46:45] so I’m glad I’ve got you on here to talk about this.
[00:46:48] Yeah. I hope this is helpful. And I mean, probably something else that your listeners could ask copywriters or look for is do they have certifications? Cause there are certifications out there. Do they have [00:47:00] certifications from copy school by copy hackers?
[00:47:03] In my opinion, that’s one of the absolute best courses. The training is very intensive and it’s really good training. So that’s something that you can look for. Do they have courses, they have certifications from Digital Marketer? That’s another good one. But that’s probably like something else that they can ask for or look for when they’re visiting websites.
[00:47:23] Wait, when you gave me your bio and you said that you, worked with, Traffic Conversion Summit. , , that is a massive summit,
[00:47:29] so you’ve worked with some great companies. And when, even when I went to your website, which if people want to know, go to copywriterjoe.com and to email you without even looking at your email address, I am going to assume it’s a joe@copywriterjoe.com.
[00:47:45] How did you know?
[00:47:48] Wild guess. I love the simplicity of it all. So Joe, , if people want to reach out to you, is that the best way? Reach out to you through your website and through email?
[00:47:58] Those are the best ways. And [00:48:00] if you go to my website, I’m also on LinkedIn and it used to be Twitter.
[00:48:04] Now it’s X, but you should see the those links there at the bottom of my website. You can connect with me there too.
[00:48:10] Okay, that is fantastic. So Joe, I want to thank you for coming on the Podiatry Legends Podcast, a legend who’s not a podiatrist, and this has been absolutely fantastic. So thank you very much.
[00:48:21] Tyson, thanks so much for having me, man. I hope this helps your listeners.
[00:48:25] I’m sure it will, and I look forward to seeing you in October.
[00:48:28] Yeah, see you in October.
[00:48:29] Okay, bye. All right.